The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Tolerance!

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Ragnar (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:34 am

What your version lacks in conversational ease, it makes up for in concrete imagery. :smug:
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Scuderia (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:49 am

Momar wrote: Genderqueer, here, and damned proud of it.
Hey! Speaking of which - I remember in one of the chunkychats that you mentioned that you were happy that your employer is cool with who you are.
So how does that manifest itself in the real world? Do you dress any differently or what?

Because - hey - y'all are text to me on some level.

I'm half terrified I'm going to offend someone or step over the line so you don't have to answer :gotcha:
Last edited by Scuderia on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:54 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:Do you dress any differently or what?

Because - hey - y'all are text to me on some level.
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I dress like this because I feel like it, and it's how I want to look. Don't think my sexuality is too involved in that decision, but it might be different for other people.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Scuderia (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:02 am

Nice jacket.

No I mean like Momar is a special case and Warp is an extra special case. Unless I'm completely misremembering one thing or another.

Thus the whole :gotcha: *eep* I don't want to step out onto thin ice on people I don't want to offend
Last edited by Scuderia on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:Nice jacket.

No I mean like Momar is a special case and Warp is an extra special case. Unless I'm completely misremembering one thing or another.

Thus the whole :gotcha: *eep*
Ah, yeah, I guess I should revise that to be "it is probably different for other people." Especially with things in regards to gender rather than sexuality. But I can't speak so much on that subject so I'll let them speak for themselves.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by londonarbuckle (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:13 am

Femto wrote:
I think I may have bumped up (down? sideways?) to questioning. It's kinda thrown me off balance. And now all of a sudden I'm doing a whole ton of soul searching and re-evaluation. Goddamn, and I had just sort of thrown myself into the "you are a white straight middle class man, no one gives a damn about your problems" mindset for the longest time, and now everything's sort of decompressing.

in summary my goddamn brain hurts and I'm kinda weirded out and a little scared. I feel like doing what I damn near physically restrained myself from doing as a teenager and writing a big old angsty collection of private thoughts and shit. I dunno, this is just sort of dredging up some old anxieties I just realized I never really solved, just sort of pushed off to the side.
This is pretty much all of the same stuff I've been going through the last few weeks, and still am to an extent. I don't know if I properly articulated how recently my questioning started, but it's only been going on since about the 15th. I really should do a bit more of an effortpost about my own specific experiences, partly because I looked over my other posts in this thread and ewww boy, are they abstract. That's a bad habit of mine. I think I'll wait until tomorrow because my brain ain't functioning atm.

Also, just because it hadn't been said enough times already, this thread is great and I appreciate the hell out of it.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Jill (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:57 am

Pineapple wrote:There are several online resources for finding trans-friendly therapists who can help you explore what you're feeling. WPATH and GLMA maintain such lists, and I've heard of counselors who do online sessions for people who are out in the boonies without access to a sympathetic counselor.
Appreciate the thought, and those links I'll hang on to. I'm in no position to actually worry about this right now though. For one thing, I still depend on my dad who would probably scoff at the idea. He certainly hasn't had nice things to say about my brother being gay, so asking for support in something like this would probably just be taken as an insult. There's a lot else to it that I shouldn't mention (especially not in this thread) to avoid the whole disorders/advice debacle.

Also just want to echo that I appreciate this thread.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Pineapple » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:19 am

Grim wrote:Appreciate the thought, and those links I'll hang on to. I'm in no position to actually worry about this right now though. For one thing, I still depend on my dad who would probably scoff at the idea. He certainly hasn't had nice things to say about my brother being gay, so asking for support in something like this would probably just be taken as an insult. There's a lot else to it that I shouldn't mention (especially not in this thread) to avoid the whole disorders/advice debacle.

Also just want to echo that I appreciate this thread.
Oh, don't think I'm telling you to transition or anything! Counselors who understand gender issues deal with plenty of far less earth-shattering issues. I used to feel kinda weird about my gender because I don't identify with media images of what being a woman and femininity means. I basically pushed a lot of the femmey stuff out of my life and tried to act "hard" as a self defense mechanism. This started in high school and I didn't really think about what I was doing until I was in therapy for anxiety after leaving college. It didn't come up a lot with my counselor but we did discuss it a bit and it got me reflecting internally a lot. Now I feel a lot more secure in myself, I still tend to prefer more masculine styles but I find myself enjoying more femme stuff like wearing a skirt and doing my nails once in a while.

... and displaying my pastel plastic pony collection where everyone can see. :ghost:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Walkin Goon » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:46 am

It is a nice thread, so don't be a stranger in future discussion if you feel like putting in a thought or two.
Hope things work out for you, Grim.
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Would also like to say that I would love hearing more from the trans-folk here as well.
Not meaning to come off as prying or stratifying, but posts on the matter are always interesting to read, and often enlightening for a topic that is very stifled in most discussions outside the Internet.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:03 am

Yeah, more than any other identity issue, Trans seems the most fascinating. So, hearing about it is pretty cool.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:37 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:
Hey! Speaking of which - I remember in one of the chunkychats that you mentioned that you were happy that your employer is cool with who you are.
So how does that manifest itself in the real world? Do you dress any differently or what?

Because - hey - y'all are text to me on some level.

I'm half terrified I'm going to offend someone or step over the line so you don't have to answer :gotcha:
First off, it's literally impossible to offend me with an honest question. One of the biggest problems with being trans is that so many people don't know that much about it - not only do you need to come out to people, but half the time you have to explain it to them, too. I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

As for what I wear, it really depends on my mood. I tend to dress pretty androgynously, especially in the winter. There's a pretty lax dress code in the lab so I'm usually in a nice sweater and jeans, but I tend to wear men's clothes. However, my company has a really, really awesome process for transitioning employees. If and when I choose to present as female, I'm allowed a second security badge with a different photo and my female name on it, and there are people who will help me prepare my boss and my team for what to expect - because nobody should have to come out to their boss alone. There's also a very strong culture of acceptance within the company, and they have a pretty solid anti-harassment policy.

It's really not in the cards (or the budget) for me to transition right now, but it's immensely liberating to know that I can if I want to. It might make things weird with some of my team, but that's to be expected. Because hey, if someone you know as a guy comes in as a woman one day, yeah, I don't mind saying that can be awkward.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Shotgunbadger (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:45 am

Wow it's wonderful that your job is so progressive, Momar, I'm really happy for ya :yay:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:47 am

Yeah, that is really nice to hear. It's always good to be reminded that there are forward thinking places out there.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:54 am

Thanks. It's one of the reasons I'm working for them instead of in forensics. Law Enforcement is still an old boys' club, even in the labs.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:19 am

Aww, I'm so jealous. Forensics is what I have my degree in, but with State Funding the way it is, I have fuck-all in the name of job prospects right now, so I'm working Oncology and keeping an eye out.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:47 am

Fortunately, you guys do have that NAS report trickling down the system. These things take time, but I think jobs and funding are on the horizon. Keep an eye out in other states, too. Hell, you might get paid to live in Hawaii.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Lazy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:56 am

Going back a bit here, but I should say that although I realized that I like guys relatively early on(at like 13 or so), I still had trouble coming to terms with or really understanding this. For a while, I was able to think of myself as straight despite having nil attraction to women. It's irritatingly easy to ignore what you feel like and lie to yourself. I pretty went from "Yeah I'm totally straight why wouldn't I be that doesn't make sense don't be silly" to "Alright so I guess I like guys too yeah that explains pretty much all of my crushes/attractions up to this point" to "why the fuck did I ever act like I like women holy shit what a waste of time."
I mean, I just want to make it a little more clear how bumpy the road usually is. Few people know exactly who they are and what they like right away off the top of their head, especially when what they really want goes strongly against social norms.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:25 am

Momar, Trans question.

Do you think yourself as attractive? Like, depending on if you ID with Male or Female any given day so you see yourself as pretty/handsome? I ask because there was some thread on SA "PYF Pictures of Ugly People!" or something equally horrible, and the mod in the OP even had to make a rule "QUIT POSTING PICTURES OF TRANS PEOPLE!" of which there were several probations because people were. While posting pictures of people, especially Trans people one finds unattractive, my worry is, like in the case of the thread, how can you tell?

I have no familiarity with Trans individuals at all in real life, how can I be able to correctly process someone as a Trans by looks and not just assume that they're an ugly whatevertheoppositetheyarethatday.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:40 am

Aramek wrote:Momar, Trans question.

Do you think yourself as attractive? Like, depending on if you ID with Male or Female any given day so you see yourself as pretty/handsome? I ask because there was some thread on SA "PYF Pictures of Ugly People!" or something equally horrible, and the mod in the OP even had to make a rule "QUIT POSTING PICTURES OF TRANS PEOPLE!" of which there were several probations because people were. While posting pictures of people, especially Trans people one finds unattractive, my worry is, like in the case of the thread, how can you tell?

I have no familiarity with Trans individuals at all in real life, how can I be able to correctly process someone as a Trans by looks and not just assume that they're an ugly whatevertheoppositetheyarethatday.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to ask here. It seems to boil down to, "How do you tell if someone is unattractive?" Which is entirely a subjective and personal thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc.

On the transgender front, there's actually a lot more to it than just someone deciding to be a different gender on certain days. That's just one subsection of it, which is called bigender if I remember right. Looks like you might need to do some research on what genderqueer is.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Femto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:42 am

Well, I've got my head on straighter. No pun intended. Figure I'm only really a 1 on the Kinsey scale, I just sort of have these sort of streaks of homoerotic thoughts or urges that come and go every now and again. It's pretty, I don't know, chaste too. Like the level of attraction to someone you felt at 14. It's definitely there, but it's so alien and unknown that the idea of full on sexual activity is almost sort of offputting- then again, every so often I get that way with women too. I really don't see this whole thing affecting/effecting me much in the long term, but it's good to come to terms with. I always kind of knew, I just sort of punted it off to the side or figured it was something everyone went through. I might act of them, I might not- I'm not exactly a sexual dynamo and I never had a relationship that lasted longer than three weeks.

I mean, there's a whole bunch of other stuff this little crisis dredged up and a whole lot of other things I have to come to terms with, but this is the wrong thread for it and y'all ain't therapists, so I'll just say so long for now and thanks for all you all did, even if some of it was unpleasant.

And yeah, I get exactly what you mean, Lazy. It's frightening how easy it is to lie to yourself about this stuff, and how much that can hurt you in the long run. And thanks Momar, I really didn't have much of an idea about what genderqueer was, this is really enlightening. Maybe I should give that a good hard think too once I settle down a little.
Last edited by Femto on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 am

I was wondering through the guise of that thread. "Keep posting pictures of ugly people, but not Trans people." which was reinforcing that it is not okay to think trans people are ugly (but for some reason it was perfectly fine to poke fun at non trans people for being ugly.)
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:51 am

Femto wrote:Well, I've got my head on straighter. No pun intended. Figure I'm only really a 1 on the Kinsey scale, I just sort of have these sort of streaks of homoerotic thoughts or urges that come and go every now and again. It's pretty, I don't know, chaste too. Like the level of attraction to someone you felt at 14. It's definitely there, but it's so alien and unknown that the idea of full on sexual activity is almost sort of offputting- then again, every so often I get that way with women too. I really don't see this whole thing affecting/effecting me much in the long term, but it's good to come to terms with. I always kind of knew, I just sort of punted it off to the side or figured it was something everyone went through. I might act of them, I might not- I'm not exactly a sexual dynamo and I never had a relationship that lasted longer than three weeks.

I mean, there's a whole bunch of other stuff this little crisis dredged up and a whole lot of other things I have to come to terms with, but this is the wrong thread for it and y'all ain't therapists, so I'll just say so long for now and thanks for all you all did, even if some of it was unpleasant.

And yeah, I get exactly what you mean, Lazy. It's frightening how easy it is to lie to yourself about this stuff, and how much that can hurt you in the long run. And thanks Momar, I really didn't have much of an idea about what genderqueer was, this is really enlightening.
I would still fully recommend bringing it up if/when you go to the university provided counselor/therapy! I also fully recommend setting up that appointment as soon as possible. It is very very easy to psych yourself out and go, "Oh nope, I'm good, figured things out on my own." It's something I said to myself for a long time, and just recently realized was entirely false. I've been going to the campus counseling here, and it's been very helpful. Not just with the self identity stuff, but also with just dealing with school stress and life things in general.

Figuring out that part of you runs against the grain of culture is always unpleasant, but in the long run, being true to who you are feels so much better.

"Ickyness is often a side effect of hard work." :iiaaa:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Octavia (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:56 am

Lazy wrote:I mean, I just want to make it a little more clear how bumpy the road usually is. Few people know exactly who they are and what they like right away off the top of their head, especially when what they really want goes strongly against social norms.
And then every so often after you think you "figured it all out," you'll see an attractive person of the opposite gender and question everything all over again. :pinkieshrug:

That's why I keep trying to push the importance of not labeling yourself. You'll go crazy over it. Just do what makes you happy. Being happy is the most important thing.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:04 pm

Octavia wrote: That's why I keep trying to push the importance of not labeling yourself. You'll go crazy over it. Just do what makes you happy. Being happy is the most important thing.
Oh yeah, that's something else I keep forgetting to repeat. Sexuality is so very fluid. It's developed over a lifetime, and nobody really understands how it works. So don't be scared if suddenly your feelings change! Approach it consciously and take it in stride as a developing part of who you are.

Labels are nice and all, because they give us a short word or sentence to tell people when they ask who you are, but people can't be broken down into such simple terms. It took me four pages to sum up just a fraction of my self identity, and I've always considered myself pretty whitebread. It'd be nice if we could do that with everybody we met, and in a perfect world we'd all be understanding and supportive and informed about just how different and unique and special each and every person is.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:18 pm

Lazy wrote:Going back a bit here, but I should say that although I realized that I like guys relatively early on(at like 13 or so), I still had trouble coming to terms with or really understanding this. For a while, I was able to think of myself as straight despite having nil attraction to women. It's irritatingly easy to ignore what you feel like and lie to yourself. I pretty went from "Yeah I'm totally straight why wouldn't I be that doesn't make sense don't be silly" to "Alright so I guess I like guys too yeah that explains pretty much all of my crushes/attractions up to this point" to "why the fuck did I ever act like I like women holy shit what a waste of time."
I mean, I just want to make it a little more clear how bumpy the road usually is. Few people know exactly who they are and what they like right away off the top of their head, especially when what they really want goes strongly against social norms.
This is incredibly true. For every non-cisgendered, non-heterosexual person who says the "always knew" who and what they were, there are two people who came to that conclusion after a long and difficult road, and many, many more who have yet to come to any conclusion at all. Just like straight people sometimes have their doubts, it's okay to question if you're actually gay, or bi, or asexual, or trans. Most importantly, it is okay to change your mind. It's not like you pick an orientation at 16, and the pink mafia will come after you if you falter. If you don't have a commitment to a person you'll be breaking, try the other side. If you're thinking of transitioning, try it, and if you don't like it, go back. Naturally, there are safety concerns, and especially when transitioning, there are personal security environments that need to be there in order for you to do it safely and comfortably, but nobody's going to think less of you if you decide that things aren't right for you.
I think the biggest part of coming to terms with myself was getting rid of that 'sense of urgency' about the transitioning process. It's not a race. You will always have time to transition, or come out as gay, or question yourself. Yes, you often feel an urge to express yourself, but there are quiet ways to do it. Being trapped in a gender or in a social role where you don't feel right is hard - I've been there. But sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is put these things on hold, and focus on an education or a career, so you can change the environment around you to one more amenable to your true lifestyle.
I'm just beginning a career that will give me the means to be what I want to be, but I only got here by putting my agony on the backburner. My first foray into post-secondary life was horrible. I was trying to transition, I was horribly depressed, and I barely passed my first year. I couldn't afford second year, so I dropped out. If you're in a situation you don't like, do what you can to get yourself into a more positive one - be it by distancing yourself emotionally and geographically from those who would seek to keep you down, and if you can, volunteering your time with the community to make the place you do settle in better for everyone. You have the power to change your situation, and speaking from experience, I can't stress enough how much that kind of change can change your comfort level, both with yourself and with the world around you.

Aramek wrote:Momar, Trans question.

Do you think yourself as attractive? Like, depending on if you ID with Male or Female any given day so you see yourself as pretty/handsome? I ask because there was some thread on SA "PYF Pictures of Ugly People!" or something equally horrible, and the mod in the OP even had to make a rule "QUIT POSTING PICTURES OF TRANS PEOPLE!" of which there were several probations because people were. While posting pictures of people, especially Trans people one finds unattractive, my worry is, like in the case of the thread, how can you tell?

I have no familiarity with Trans individuals at all in real life, how can I be able to correctly process someone as a Trans by looks and not just assume that they're an ugly whatevertheoppositetheyarethatday.
I get what you're saying. This is an incredibly sticky issue with transpeople. Everyone has self-image issues. With people in the trans spectrum, it's usually much, much worse. They have body issues that are difficult to even describe. It's (comparatively) easy to wear make-up, style yourself, or lose weight than it is to change physical features - and even though the surgery is very very good, it's risky, and nothing is ever perfect.

Again, I'm very comfortable with who I am. And that extends to how I look. It wasn't easy to find myself attractive, and yeah there are things I'd still like to change (like losing some pounds - there are harder things but it's not easy). I like how I appear as a female, but there are style issues that make it difficult to look as good as I should (finding clothes that fit, body hair, etc). However, I know I'm cute, and it really, really does change the way you appear to others. If you carry yourself with self-esteem you really do look better. Yes, I still have some days where I doubt myself or don't feel all that rosy, but that's normal. It's human.

But I don't think that's your question. I think the reason people equate transpeople (even attractive transpeople) with 'ugly' is more of the social discomfort that comes with seeing someone you know to be of one physical sex appearing as the opposite sex. For a lot of people, it's alien and unfamiliar - whether or not it comes from a place of bigotry or not, if you aren't familiar with something it can make you uncomfortable. That's something only education and social awareness will change. As for transpeople having a different standard of beauty than regular folks, I don't really think that's true. People find different things attractive, and transpeople are no different. For most of us, its just about making ourselves look on the outside who we feel on the inside. We don't do it for you, we do it for us.
Femto wrote:Well, I've got my head on straighter. No pun intended. Figure I'm only really a 1 on the Kinsey scale, I just sort of have these sort of streaks of homoerotic thoughts or urges that come and go every now and again. It's pretty, I don't know, chaste too. Like the level of attraction to someone you felt at 14. It's definitely there, but it's so alien and unknown that the idea of full on sexual activity is almost sort of offputting- then again, every so often I get that way with women too. I really don't see this whole thing affecting/effecting me much in the long term, but it's good to come to terms with. I always kind of knew, I just sort of punted it off to the side or figured it was something everyone went through. I might act of them, I might not- I'm not exactly a sexual dynamo and I never had a relationship that lasted longer than three weeks.

I mean, there's a whole bunch of other stuff this little crisis dredged up and a whole lot of other things I have to come to terms with, but this is the wrong thread for it and y'all ain't therapists, so I'll just say so long for now and thanks for all you all did, even if some of it was unpleasant.

And yeah, I get exactly what you mean, Lazy. It's frightening how easy it is to lie to yourself about this stuff, and how much that can hurt you in the long run. And thanks Momar, I really didn't have much of an idea about what genderqueer was, this is really enlightening. Maybe I should give that a good hard think too once I settle down a little.
You're welcome!

As for the crisis you're going through, there's nothing wrong with questioning who you are. Don't feel the need to label yourself, and especially don't feel the need to commit to a preference. Try and go to a few queer events. You don't even need to engage in anything physical, but sometimes being around people who are out can tell you a lot about yourself. You can always decide it isn't for you, and go back to being straight with a great deal more confidence in that fact, or decide your bi and be happy with that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you not to be upset - you're entitled. It can be very jarring to question what is pretty much a major foundation of self-identity. If you can get to therapy, I'd recommend talking it out. If nothing else, it's like a tune-up for your emotions and it can be very refreshing.

Also, don't forget about your peers. If there's a GSA in your school/university/community, go visit it. There are always wonderful non-judgemental people who volunteer, and would love to listen to you. Peer counsellors are a lot easier to get to than therapists, and sometimes when you need a sympathetic ear, they're well worth your time. And they might be able to point you in the right direction when it comes to community events.

Lazy

Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Lazy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:24 pm

Octavia wrote:
And then every so often after you think you "figured it all out," you'll see an attractive person of the opposite gender and question everything all over again. :pinkieshrug:

That's why I keep trying to push the importance of not labeling yourself. You'll go crazy over it. Just do what makes you happy. Being happy is the most important thing.
Well, I'm not sure that it's really possible to be entirely 100% straight or gay, and I can at least tell which women are good looking. It's certainly possible that my tastes could change, and if they do, I think I'm confident enough in my identity that I wouldn't have trouble accepting it.
At the moment, though, I don't find myself even marginally attracted to women. I mean, I tried to for quite a while.
Rest assured that I'm not trying to fit myself into label and being a victim of con firmation bias.

On the subject of labels, though, it's kind of a sad fact of how humans work that most everyone thinks of themselves as a complex person made of an entire lifetime of experience, but will often at least unconsiously think of others in terms of labels. If you ask someone to define themselves, they'll likely struggle and give you a longwinded, openended answer, but if you ask them to define OTHERS they'll easily say "Oh, he's a gamer" or "She's really into art." The brain is really good at sorting other people via thier external qualities and interests, while everyone has acess to thier own memories and a deeper sense of self, even if they can't quite put that into words. I feel like a lot of people just don't think about others in that context, and it bothers me.
I'm fairly sure that it'd be a better world if there was some accurate way to convey that, but sometimes I'm not really sure.
:pinkieshrug:
/endrambling

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:27 pm

Speaking on behalf of a professional hater, Labels are really easy to do because it is much easier to just label someone than try to get to know them better. It is party from convenience, party laziness, party self protection.

We shouldn't do it, but it just comes so easily and naturally to do so.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Doctor Wheeze (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:34 pm

Labels are just a convenience. There's a lot of nuance that they don't capture, but they can be helpful. I know that, personally, the fact that a word even exists for what I am is tremendously comforting. But in the end, it's just a tool. It works for me, not the other way around.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:38 pm

Labels are also the only way to identify someone you don't know very well. I hate labels, but even I use them. It's just how the brain works. Getting to know your acquaintances better is really the only way to cut down on the labeling you do.

And funny story - the reason I got out of my denial and self-loathing and realized I was trans is because someone told me it was a word, and gave me a definition. Hit me like a punch to the gut.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Lazy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:02 pm

Well, labels are pretty clearly the only real way to... I guess interact with people, given the amount of people everyone meets and how long it takes to really get to know someone. There's not really any alternative, but it makes me sad all the same. I just end up thinking of all the depth everyone has that no one else will ever really know about, and that's kinda depressing to me. Probably has to do with how much of an information loving kinda guy I am(I was that kid who reading through like several scientific textbooks and fantasy novels during break in elementary/high school). Plus I'm in a kinda weird mood today.
I think the solution here isn't to try to not use labels at all, because that's essentially impossible, but to try and think of people as people first and foremost, and labels second, you know? Like, I just try and remind myself occasionally that I'm not gonna know everything about anyone, despite how well I think I know them.

Val Helmethead

Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Val Helmethead » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:26 pm

I've been sitting here since yesterday reading this thread, and wanting to participate, but I couldn't really think of anything useful to say. I'm a straight male (0 on the scale w/ maybe a decimal point somewhere) and I'd like to call myself an ally...

...but that may be the problem; I really don't know what being an ally means. I have a few gay friends, but I also volunteer in what is traditionally a fairly homosexual hostile organization. Now, I'd like to think my department is pretty good these days (we have an EMT company we work closely with that has a trans employee, and no one I've seen is anything other than professional) but gay jokes are common, and I'm never really been someone to rock the boat.

I'm not really sure what I am asking here. I know there is probably more I could do, but is there anything I should do? Is it okay to say "I'm all for equality in the eyes of the law, and for cultural acceptance, but I'm not going to tell my co-workers / fellow firefighters something is offensive"?

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Doctor Wheeze (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:00 pm

I think this is some pretty good advice for dealing with that kind of situation. It's about racism, but same principle.


Basically, confront the statement not the person, because it's too easy to be defensive about an attack on your character. Make it clear to them that you're not comfortable with that sort of thing. Stuff like that is so ingrained that I think most people don't even realize that it's shitty because they don't have to think about it ever. Or they know it's shitty, but they don't think it's a big deal because they don't think there are any gays around - the same way somebody might tell racist jokes only if they are in the company of other white people.

...Of course, I'm pretty non-confrontational so I would have a hard time following my own advice :modesty: Still, I think it's good advice. Just try not to be shitty, examine your own prejudices, and support LGBT-friendly politicians.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by !saak (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: labels.

Labels are at the same time an easy way to convey a lot of information in a short and to the point way, but it can also be an incredibly lazy way.
I've been working on getting rid of the "label subroutine" in my head, this thread is certainly a great help as is MLP, and I've sort of reached a point where I find it just plain unnecessary to put a label on anyone or anything.

Sometimes my mind still points to a certain label but it's becoming increasingly easier to go "No, that's a silly response I learned from silly places and people."

Completely unrelated, but I've now made the following unbreakable connection:

"QUILTBAG, QUILTBAG, QUILTBAAAGG!!!

...

And picklebarrel!"


:v:

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:10 pm

Doctor Wheeze wrote: Just try not to be shitty, examine your own prejudices, and support LGBT-friendly politicians.
Thank you so much. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I've kinda felt bad because there's a 0% chance I'll be the guy standing outside with a sign/attending a march or something. But I know that by treating everyone as if they were a friend it is at least the right way to take a step.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Octavia (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:44 pm

When someone around me is being casually homophobic, like saying "that's gay" to mean something is stupid or annoying, I will ask them point blank, "why is that gay?" Nine times out of ten, they will immediately start backpedaling. It's a way to make them think twice when choosing their words the next time without going on a big rant or publicly humiliating them.
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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by concerned reader (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Octavia wrote:When someone around me is being casually homophobic, like saying "that's gay" to mean something is stupid or annoying, I will ask them point blank, "why is that gay?" Nine times out of ten, they will immediately start backpedaling. It's a way to make them think twice when choosing their words the next time without going on a big rant or publicly humiliating them.
I've only just now started doing this, and I really wish i'd started sooner. It's amazing how halting it can be when you point out things like this.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Momo (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:43 pm

All you really need to be doing as an ally is keep being awesome. Seriously, it helps just to know there are straight people out there who are fine with who we are. Sure, you can do more, but it's not required.

And Val, you're the second person I've noticed who's remarked they experienced some trepidation about posting here (the first did so privately). Please, don't feel out of place posting here, and there's no such thing as a stupid question except the ones that go unasked. Everyone is welcome here.

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Luneshot » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:52 pm

I apologize if I offend anyone with this, but I'm curious. For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)? Disregarding the slight absurdity of asking this question on a My Little Pony forum, I'm curious as to how much the stereotypes are true when it comes to how you act or speak.

For those that are transgender or genderqueer- what would you be most comfortable with people referring to you as? Male or female?

Walkin Goon

Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Walkin Goon » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Momar wrote:All you really need to be doing as an ally is keep being awesome. Seriously, it helps just to know there are straight people out there who are fine with who we are. Sure, you can do more, but it's not required.
Summed up in two sentences before I could finish my paragraph and a half. :applejargh:

Yes, one of the most important things you can do is simply recognize yourself as role-model for your views, and take it from there.

As someone who had to regularly put up with homophobic and racist remarks from both friends and family, I know it's hard to be confrontational about it at times, but there are a multitude ways to passively support your stance.
Frankly, you'd be amaze how that can rub off on people.
Herr General wrote:I apologize if I offend anyone with this, but I'm curious. For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)?
Not sure if I can speak for this, but I'd say manners of masculinity and femininity can vary very much, regardless of sexual preference.

If you think all gay men behave effeminately, you've got another thing comin'. :iamapony:

(Why yes, I have been waiting all topic to make that comment)

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Re: The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Toleranc

Post by Aramek (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:12 pm

The world needs more Tomboys, regardless of gender or orientation. All of you! Tomboy it up! :awesomedash:

e: I haven't said "that's gay" about anything in a very, very long time. :yay:
But then, this weekend, I was playing Saints Row 3, and was in a tank blowing up about 20 other tanks, and said "Abrams? More like Gaybrams!" And then I felt bad. :fluttersmith:
Last edited by Aramek on Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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