The Gender and Sexual Minority Thread: Love and Tolerance!

Factory Factory · Post by **Factory Factory** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:14 pm

I once asked my roommate about the "effeminate"/"tomboyish" things, and his answer was that it is simple self-presentation. That kind of messing with gender roles has roots in various cultural movements that just happened to be popular with people who gay when that was a tougher thing to be, so it's kind of a... A statement of group affiliation.

The content of the statement itself isn't that important, if you'll allow me to get abstract for a bit. The mannerisms, the fashions, the style, etc. - the specifics might as well be irrelevant. What's important is that it's a group activity, and by expressing it, you can signal to people what you want them to see when they meet you. It's not like you're contractually obligated to squeeze your hairy chest into a sequined dress and wear a Van Dyke made of silver glitter (that guy was cool - my roommate favored a feather boa). But showing appreciation for or using the style works as a message about yourself, telling the world the kind of things you like.

It's like... You don't like sports much, but you love getting together with your friends and watching the Super Bowl and having nachos and making lewd cracks about wardrobe malfunctions. That's a very "manly," traditional machismo thing to do, and it's fun. It's fun, and you get to express yourself at the same time.

Same thing.

I knew one guy at school who specifically tried to subvert standard combinations of gender norms. He did a very good job of being fairly baffling. A very professional and skilled student who also ran a progressive-experimental band, spoke with Camp stylings, used very masculine body language except when he crossed his legs, and topped everything off with an enormous mane of hippie-hair and a huge mountain man beard.

Octavia wrote:When someone around me is being casually homophobic, like saying "that's gay" to mean something is stupid or annoying, I will ask them point blank, "why is that gay?" Nine times out of ten, they will immediately start backpedaling. It's a way to make them think twice when choosing their words the next time without going on a big rant or publicly humiliating them.

One of the most straightforward-but-odd-feeling conversations I ever had was doing that when the person saying "That's gay" was a lesbian. And no, she wasn't being cute or ironic. She just gave no shits.

I think the only thing that came out of it was that I signed up for a linguistics course the very next semester

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:33 pm

To add to what's already been discussed on the topic of acting femme/butch, some people consciously display verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate their orientation to those attuned to such things (see: gaydar). It's difficult to ask someone out unless you've got a good feeling they're gay. Even today asking out the wrong guy or girl can be pretty disastrous, depending on where you live.
With others, it's just the way they act naturally, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I know some pretty effeminate straight men. And some pretty butch gay men. I have a gay friend who's a decorated veteran with a booming voice, and can turn on the femme thing like a switch - mostly to fuck with people. It really is an individual thing, and it's not something you can (or should) really generalize.

Though on the topic of non-verbal cues, there have been lots of pretty interesting codes in recent times. There's the Hanky code, which is extremely sophisticated and has regional variants just like a dialect. There was also the 'Friend of Dorothy,' which was almost like something out of a cold war spy movie...

...a really gay Cold War spy movie.

As for transgender people, it really, really depends on context. Some people like to be called exclusively by their preferred gender. Others like to be called by whichever gender they're presenting as. If you don't know the person, generally use the pronoun they're presenting as - but be careful of context. You don't want to be responsible for outing someone if they're closeted, and you were overheard using the wrong pronoun. At the end of the day, it depends entirely on the individual. You're likely not going to offend someone if you ask them which pronoun they'd prefer to be called by; it's a courtesy not many people even bother to extend.

Lazy · Post by **Lazy** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:42 pm

Herr General wrote:I apologize if I offend anyone with this, but I'm curious. For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)? Disregarding the slight absurdity of asking this question on a My Little Pony forum, I'm curious as to how much the stereotypes are true when it comes to how you act or speak.

Varies. My voice is certainly masculine, but everything else is kind of a mixed bag.
My hair is long, my clothes are generally masculine but sometimes kinda not, I play shooter games with other guys like bros and then go and watch Project Runway, and I've kind of noticed in myself that I sometimes have a bit of a sway when I walk.
The moment I knew I'd hit critical gay was when I realized I was complaining to my friends over IM about not being able to watch RuPaul's Drag Race because my dad was watching the Superbowl.

Pony Factory Factory wrote:used very masculine body language except when he crossed his legs

I do that so much it's not even funny.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:03 pm

Personally, I tend to act more femmy the more comfortable I am around people. Especially if I'm drinking.

Pineapple · Post by **Pineapple** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:06 pm

Herr General wrote:I apologize if I offend anyone with this, but I'm curious. For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)? Disregarding the slight absurdity of asking this question on a My Little Pony forum, I'm curious as to how much the stereotypes are true when it comes to how you act or speak.

Depends what you mean, I guess. I never wear make-up or heels, my primary mode of dress is jeans + t-shirt + sneakers, and I have no time for stupid celebrity drama. I also think sports are boring as fuck, only know shit about cars because it's my job, and love to cook and sew.

Mordja · Post by **Mordja** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:16 pm

Well I'm glad this thread exists, now I know who on this forum I can treat exactly like I treat everyone else.

Seriously though, I just want to say thanks so much for this thread, it's helping me learn a lot—while making it clear that I know so little.

I'm kinda with Val, though I'd love to say I'm an ally, the fact is that I haven't actually done anything concrete for the QUILTBAG movement; partially out of shyness and partially because I don't really know what I can do. Admittedly, it's not as big an issue up here and most people aren't actively hostile to sexual minorities, though "gay" as an insult was still pretty common back when I was in highschool, and I'm sorry to say I had to wean myself off of it.

This thread's also made me reexamine my own orientation and while I'm mostly sure I'm straight (probably not even a 1 on the Kinsey scale), there have been times when I'd look at a guy and go damn, though more out of envy, I think. I have also come to realize that I find semi-androgynous features attractive in women: shortish hair, physically, in a word, svelte rather than feminine. Don't really know what that means yet.

Octavia wrote:When someone around me is being casually homophobic, like saying "that's gay" to mean something is stupid or annoying, I will ask them point blank, "why is that gay?" Nine times out of ten, they will immediately start backpedaling. It's a way to make them think twice when choosing their words the next time without going on a big rant or publicly humiliating them.

Ohmigod I love this. My main group of friends back in Toronto still pull this shit (especially when gaming) and though I keep wanting to call them out on their language, I've been unwilling to make it into a big deal, but this is just elegant. They're not actually homophobic, just standard nerds.

E: Never thought I'd be posting in this type of thread, this place just does things to people.

concerned reader · Post by **concerned reader** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:20 pm

Mordja wrote:Well I'm glad this thread exists, now I know who on this forum I can treat exactly like I treat everyone else.

This is my new favorite post on the forum forever.

Artificer · Post by **Artificer** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:59 pm

I may be entirely straight, but I know that my behavior has made a lot of people at my old high school think I was homosexual......and I think it's starting here at college too.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:20 pm

Fun fact about Toronto: It has a higher gay population than San Francisco.

It's just less noticeable because it's not as big a deal up here. Which is as much a curse as it is a blessing. Things are pretty bad outside the Toronto core, but they're the worst just nearest the core. A lot of people have shifted their focus away from activism, and it's in the areas that they've concluded as "done with" in terms of ingraining queer-positive beliefs that homophobia flourishes. I'm less than an hour from the gayest city in North America, and yet when I tried to form a GSA in high school, the principal shot it down for being "too exclusive". Yet the Christians-only prayer group received staff support and annual funding.

The only queer-positive event we had when I was going there was when they joined hands around the flagpole and prayed for the souls of all the gay people. I get where they were coming from... but

Frosthawk · Post by **Frosthawk** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:44 pm

Well, here in Houston, we have a gay mayor, but as shotgunbadger said earlier she was elected on the pretense that LGBT issues wouldn't be a priority for her.

Still, something is better than nothing, and that was enough for a church in Amarillo to get really mad at us and label us as the "San Francisco of Texas", which I was really proud of (even though I know in my heart that it's not true). I think by southern standards, at least (and those are terrible standards), we do okay.

I have an old high school buddy who helps co-run (or at least once co-ran) an LGBT rights activist organization over at Texas A&M. If you're familiar with the general demographics of that school (a lot of social conservatives) it's a pretty big feat. I always feel a little guilty that I've never been that active. It's good to know, from reading this thread, that just being there makes a difference. I never really even considered that to be a thing. I mean, if you're an awesome person, I don't care what your sexual identity is. Me and most people I associate with this think like this, and when that happens it's too easy to forget that others don't.

That post had 4 parenthetical statements, jeez.

On a quick unrelated note: look how similar our avatar/tag/team combo is, Artificer!

Artificer · Post by **Artificer** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:50 pm

How well does that organization at Texas A&M do? PR-wise?

And yeah avatar combo is awesome.

concerned reader · Post by **concerned reader** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:01 pm

Artificer wrote:How well does that organization at Texas A&M do? PR-wise?

And yeah avatar combo is awesome.

Having gone to A&M for a short period, the campus is actually a lot more accepting than you'd think. They've certainly got a ways to go, but the movement is happening.
http://www.thebatt.com/loftin-adds-gend ... -1.2783154

Super Karoru · Post by **Super Karoru** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:02 pm

Here's my story. It's not rife with too much drama, but maybe some of you will relate or find it interesting.

Let me start by saying I was born a female and identify as one and I'm very comfortable in my own skin. But this was not always the case. When I was growing up, I hated my body and desperately wanted to be a boy. I felt more comfortable in boy's clothes and more masculine pursuits/hobbies. I cut my hair short. I went by a nickname that was more androgynous. I was mistaken for a boy constantly, even when I started developing. This drove my parents crazy, of course, especially my mother who wanted her little girl to wear dresses. I felt like I didn't 'fit in' and was harassed at school for looking like I did. I was depressed and had low self-esteem. This sounds like the typical case for someone who would later transition into a man, right? But I never did. Well, I don't want to say that I "grew out of it" because many people don't. In my case, it took some realization that I didn't have to fit into the perfect norm of a 'girly girl'. It took becoming comfortable with myself in my own skin and liking my own body. Once I learned to like myself as I was, I didn't have that desire to want to change my gender. It does seem easier to be a man, but I'd rather stick with who I am now.

On the path to accepting myself, I discovered why I felt a little out-of-place in terms of sexuality. While I was looking like a boy, obviously I never got the attention of any guys, which I wanted. However, I enjoyed the thought of girls too. I had a number of crushes on them. Later on, it made sense. I realized I was bisexual in my teenage years, maybe around 14-15. The first person I ever told was my therapist. I like guys and girls! I do have a slight preference for females, though. I look at women more than I do men, but in terms of relationships, I can only really see myself with men. (Of course, I don't really have that much experience with relationships anyway, but that's another topic.)

I'm not really out-and-proud about it, but I won't lie. If the topic comes up and I feel like divulging it, I will, like I did with my old co-workers (who responded, "I figured you liked girls too.") As for my family, my parents are old-school southerners, but I told my dad and he's accepting of it, even if he doesn't quite get it. My mom doesn't know and probably never will. I haven't seen the need to tell her and it would probably just cause drama.

There are lots of perceptions of bisexuality that are mostly negative or untrue. One common saying is "bi now, gay later" as if it's just a phase. Some people think we just can't make up our minds. Others think we're just 'easy' and want to fuck everybody. Other people think it doesn't even exist. They may acknowledge gay and straight, and that's it, no in-between. Some think that those who are identifying or come out as bi are just doing it to get attention. Whatever the reason, it doesn't seem to be taken as seriously. It's pretty frustrating.

Whew. That was a lot of words, but I wanted to share. I'm glad we have such an accepting community of nice people here on Ponygoons.

CapacitorPlague · Post by **CapacitorPlague** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:14 pm

Herr General wrote:For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)?

I'm normally masculinish, but I like turning up the femme in me a little bit just for fun. Also, I've been told my speech and body language occasionally goes a bit femme as well, especially when I'm really relaxed or excited about something. I just find it really enjoyable.

And can I just say I love the QUILTBAG acronym? Descriptive, inclusive and fun to say.

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:17 pm

Herr General wrote:I apologize if I offend anyone with this, but I'm curious. For those of you that are gay/lesbian, I have a question: do you normally act "effeminate"/"tomboyish" (respectively)? Disregarding the slight absurdity of asking this question on a My Little Pony forum, I'm curious as to how much the stereotypes are true when it comes to how you act or speak.

I bet I know more about baseball and football than 99% of straight guys. I am also pretty athletic, I know practically nothing about fashion, and I have a fantastic relationship with my father. My boyfriend is pretty much the exact same way.

But then again, when I see an adorable avatar like Mordja's, I melt into an effeminate ball of "awwww."

I just like what I like, I act how I want to act, and I don't take gender stereotypes into account.

Ragnar · Post by **Ragnar** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:23 pm

Octavia wrote:But then again, when I see an adorable avatar like Mordja's, I melt into an effeminate ball of "awwww."

That av is on a level where no response counts as effeminate anymore.

Mordja · Post by **Mordja** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:30 pm

Now I can never change it.

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:33 pm

Mordja wrote:Now I can never change it.

eeeeeee there it is again!

Ragnar · Post by **Ragnar** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Mordja wrote:Now I can never change it.

And that's why I never got it myself. Where can you from there? Nowhere. It can't be changed ever ever forever. It's a tattoo for your posts.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:39 pm

Ragnar34 wrote: And that's why I never got it myself. Where can you from there? Nowhere. It can't be changed ever ever forever. It's a tattoo for your posts.

Tell me about it.

Val Helmethead · Post by **Val Helmethead** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:01 pm

Chunky wrote:
Tell me about it.

Edit to reply to some stuff from earlier:

I wasn't so much nervous about posting in this thread. I just feel like I didn't have much to add to the conversation. I'm glad that we've at least got an idea now of what an "ally" should be, though the more I think about it, the more I dislike the term. I don't really feel like we should have a special term that basically means "not a giant a-hole".

I mean, admittedly I've got quite a bit of empathy with everyone who's not fitting into the prevailing cultural paradigm. I myself am not religious at all, and went through a coming out of my own to my parents and grandparents. My grandmother (who fortunately still loves me) has actually said at several occasions that she's worried that I'm on the side of Satan.

But It's not a skin color. It's not me trying to get married to someone I'm not legally allowed to in most states. It's not me wearing identifying markings as part of my cultural heritage.

But I've had enough people see me as The Other that I can almost imagine what it would be like to be that way all of the time - where your very existence shows you as outside of the norm. And it pisses me off that everyone can't look at people that are different and say "oh, they're different, but that's perfectly okay". I don't know why people CARE so much about identifying different people as outsiders.

I'm not sure I even have a point with this, but it feels good to type it out. Keep being awesome, folks. I'll keep not caring about your religion, gender identity, sexual orientation, race, etc, as long as you don't bother me about mine.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Super Karoru wrote:(snip)

Awesome story. Good on you for settling somewhere outside the hard gender binary, and congratulations for being comfortable with where you are.

You do bring up a point that hasn't really been addressed yet - and that's biphobia. It's a very real thing in the queer community, and though attitudes like that are fading, bi people have sometimes been accused of wanting the benefits of being straight with the lifestyle of being gay, or unable to commit, but that's nothing but bullshit. Sometimes when people are marginalized and discriminated against, they lash out against an even smaller group. It's outmoded thinking, and it's flat out wrong.

Being bi is every bit as legitimate an orientation as being straight or being gay, and it has its own set of difficulties. Never let anyone put you down for it.

(?) · Post by **ixnay** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:21 pm

A couple years ago my brother came out to me. We were just driving back from a hunting trip when he turned down the radio and said "Time for seriouschat. I'm gay." to which I just replied "Oh, cool. I suppose that makes sense." He'd already talked with our parents and we were all supportive, but even then it must have been difficult for him since it apparently took him awhile to get to that point.

Since college I had always been supportive of LBGT issues, but this doubled my resolve since dammit, I want to be the best man at his wedding one day like he was at mine.

One side effect of this, though, has been my mom pressuring me to have kids a little bit more since then

Octavia · Post by **Octavia** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:35 pm

Momar wrote:Being bi is every bit as legitimate an orientation as being straight or being gay, and it has its own set of difficulties. Never let anyone put you down for it.

They even did a report in the New York Times that says yes, bisexuals do exist!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/healt ... exual.html

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:52 pm

Funny story. One of the first people I chose to come out to as trans came out to me as gay as I was trying to spit it out.

Pink Himalayan Salt · Post by **Pink Himalayan Salt** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:40 am

Mordja wrote:Now I can never change it.

I can't help but think of her going "YIP YIP YIP" like a small dog.

ixnay wrote:A couple years ago my brother came out to me. We were just driving back from a hunting trip when he turned down the radio and said "Time for seriouschat. I'm gay."

Did he actually say that or are your paraphrasing? Because that's totally awesome if he did.

Jill · Post by **Jill** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:55 am

Pineapple wrote:
Oh, don't think I'm telling you to transition or anything! Counselors who understand gender issues deal with plenty of far less earth-shattering issues. I used to feel kinda weird about my gender because I don't identify with media images of what being a woman and femininity means. I basically pushed a lot of the femmey stuff out of my life and tried to act "hard" as a self defense mechanism. This started in high school and I didn't really think about what I was doing until I was in therapy for anxiety after leaving college. It didn't come up a lot with my counselor but we did discuss it a bit and it got me reflecting internally a lot. Now I feel a lot more secure in myself, I still tend to prefer more masculine styles but I find myself enjoying more femme stuff like wearing a skirt and doing my nails once in a while.

... and displaying my pastel plastic pony collection where everyone can see.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about actually transitioning, but just seeing someone about the way I feel for "questioning my gender" or something like that probably wouldn't fly around here. I have this huge anxiety/dependency obstacle to overcome first anyway, which I've been trying to take the first step into for a long time.

(?) · Post by **ixnay** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:45 am

Pink Himalayan Salt wrote: Did he actually say that or are your paraphrasing? Because that's totally awesome if he did.

Yep, those were his exact words.

Pineapple · Post by **Pineapple** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:24 am

Super Karoru wrote:There are lots of perceptions of bisexuality that are mostly negative or untrue. One common saying is "bi now, gay later" as if it's just a phase. Some people think we just can't make up our minds. Others think we're just 'easy' and want to fuck everybody. Other people think it doesn't even exist. They may acknowledge gay and straight, and that's it, no in-between. Some think that those who are identifying or come out as bi are just doing it to get attention. Whatever the reason, it doesn't seem to be taken as seriously. It's pretty frustrating.

Bisexual erasure, an embarassingly real prejudice in the community.

Grim wrote:Yeah, I wasn't talking about actually transitioning, but just seeing someone about the way I feel for "questioning my gender" or something like that probably wouldn't fly around here. I have this huge anxiety/dependency obstacle to overcome first anyway, which I've been trying to take the first step into for a long time.

:< You have my hugs! Anxiety is so hard to deal with but it can get much better. I actually found yoga really helpful, I still use the breathing exercises sometimes if I have a mild panic attack.

londonarbuckle · Post by **londonarbuckle** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:36 am

Well, I've had this thread open for hours intending to respond to a couple of posts and to write down some of the stuff I've been going through, but for some reason I got incredibly nervous to start writing. Reading this thread gets me very emotional, and add that to my OCDness about writing and it didn't help things.

I had a couple of drinks hoping that would calm me down to start writing. Instead of that, I ended up telling my mom that I think I'm gay. I didn't think I'd get to this point for months, since I have a fairly hard time talking with her about anything. She was very supportive and understanding though, and I knew she would be. But man the surrealness never stops.

I'm going to bed and see if my head is any clearer tomorrow, don't ban me for buzzedposting thxplz.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:12 am

Momar wrote:Being bi is every bit as legitimate an orientation as being straight or being gay, and it has its own set of difficulties. Never let anyone put you down for it.

What's so hard about "You can't help who you are attracted to"?

CapacitorPlague · Post by **CapacitorPlague** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:44 am

londonarbuckle wrote:I had a couple of drinks hoping that would calm me down to start writing. Instead of that, I ended up telling my mom that I think I'm gay. I didn't think I'd get to this point for months, since I have a fairly hard time talking with her about anything. She was very supportive and understanding though, and I knew she would be. But man the surrealness never stops.

That's pretty much how I felt coming out to my parents. My brain was freaking out the entire time and then, when I finished, there was a feeling of relief combined with the "Did I seriously just do that? Geez, if you told me a year ago..." surrealness. That's why I use the weighted vest analogy, I just felt a bit lighter and relaxed afterwards instead of weighed down by the stress of keeping it hidden in myself.

Congratulations, it takes a lot of courage to be that honest, especially with people you love.

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:15 am

Not gay, but, if I was, and I ever came out to my parents, I'm 90% sure the first thing out of their mouths would be a Drawn Together-esque "Well DUHHHH!"

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 am

Congratulations, Londonarbuckle. That took a lot of guts. Who says gays are sissies?

Aramek · Post by **Aramek** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:16 am

Serious post:

We can all agree that outing someone against their will, possibly in the form of blackmail is bad. Pretty black and white there. But, at least in America, there's a bit of a grey area that I've noticed being talked about depending on whom the "target" is. Especially if they are a high profile enemy of the QUILTBAG et al. 99% of the time, Republican Lawmakers. This seems to fall into two camps.

1. While outing people against their will is indeed bad, it is okay to do it in order to showcase the hypocrisy of the closeted gay Republicans who thump their bibles and make life shittier for non closeted gays. Knowing full well that outing them usually leads to ruining them.

2. It is never okay to out someone against their will, it is a tactic that should never be used, no matter the target, because if we stoop to that level, we're no better than the genuine homophobic people who use it against gays.

And all the grey areas in between. So, not wanting to start shit or to make any of you angry if any of us fall on one side or the other, and you had to pick a side, which are you on? Is it okay to out closeted bigots knowing full well it'll ruin them, or, keep hammering the peace and logic hoping that it'll produce the change within their own hearts to get them to do the right thing themselves?

---

Personally? I'm all for ruining those fuckers. You introduce legislation to not only make gay marriage illegal, but to make sure gays can't even get civil unions, and tabloids find out you've been soliciting sex in a men's bathroom? I hope you get hammered. Hard.

I'm of the camp that intolerance of intolerance is NOT intolerance in itself. That's such a fuckin' stupid utopic viewpoint, to me. "As long as they are polite about it, it is perfectly okay to hold an anti gay or anti Jew rally" is just wrong. I'm all for freedom of speech and all that, but to think of the people trying to get the Nazis out of their communities as "bullies" themselves is just plain wrong.

Shotgunbadger · Post by **Shotgunbadger** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:26 am

Outing people, to me, is never acceptable. Even the most vile bigots, if they are gay, are struggling with a very personal thing, and to force it out to go 'nayh nayh' at them only makes it more painful, it only angers them more and it only makes them retreat deeper into hate and anger.

As for the anti gay rallies and all, the problem is it's not 'as long as their polite', in America it's 'as long as we have Free Speech'. I fully support Free Speech, it allows me to attend my Socialist rallies in the state of Texas without fear of the government kicking the door in and arresting us as undesirables, it lets me attend gay rights rallies without fear of the same, if we start going 'ok well THESE guys, fuck THOSE guys' we open a door that can, in some areas, lead to those safeties being removed.

KKK, Nazis, whatever, they're despicable, as a gay Jewish man I think it goes without saying I hold neither of these groups to any respect, but the simple fact is we are a nation founded on the concept that the government does not have the right to decide what speech is ok and what isn't, so until they go "AND SERIOUSLY GUYS, LET'S FUCKIN KILL SOME GAYS" they have the same right to be terrible wastes of skin as I do to go to my rallies.

Factory Factory · Post by **Factory Factory** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:32 am

As much as their behavior offends me, I would never wish a sexuality or gender-identity witchhunt on anybody. Period, end of story.

If they out themselves right after giving a stomping "moral issues" filibuster or something (I'm pretty sure we're thinking of Larry Craig here)? Yeah, I'll crow about it. But at the same time, I recognize a tragedy in that the man had such a division between what he felt was right and what he could not deny about himself, all that it drove him to, and the sadness it created.

Aramek wrote: What's so hard about "You can't help who you are attracted to"?

I don't think I'm in a good mindset to effortpost about this, but I've actually felt a lot of internal tension about this. As I've mentioned, I'm a very "straight" bisexual, and whenever I've asserted myself as a bisexual, it's always, always come with this deep anxiety that I'm not a "real" bisexual, or that my experience isn't different enough from "heteronormative" that I have any right to speak about QUILTBAG issues from a personal perspective.

Weird Autumn · Post by **Weird Autumn** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:37 am

Quote is not edit.

Weird Autumn · Post by **Weird Autumn** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:39 am

To a certain extent, I think at its core the issue really comes down to the question of whether or not and to what extent elected officials- or really anybody in the public eye- are allowed their privacy in the same way private individuals are.

Personally I think everyone has the right to their privacy, and I can definitely sympathize with someone who's struggling to reconcile their feelings with their beliefs (even if those beliefs are utterly vile) but at the very least, "gay-bashing senator hires male prostitute" is more relevant than the bullshit celebrity gossip of the week.

(?) · Post by **Momo** (?) » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:43 am

Pony Factory Factory wrote: I don't think I'm in a good mindset to effortpost about this, but I've actually felt a lot of internal tension about this. As I've mentioned, I'm a very "straight" bisexual, and whenever I've asserted myself as a bisexual, it's always, always come with this deep anxiety that I'm not a "real" bisexual, or that my experience isn't different enough from "heteronormative" that I have any right to speak about QUILTBAG issues from a personal perspective.

There's no right way to be what you are. Never forget that.